Branded a criminal - Red Offender spray is rolled out at Canterbury's nightspots

Chris Taylor wrote:

Regarding the question posed by some that Offender ID is an offensive weapon: please see below a quote from an ACPO Development Officer when asked to comment on this matter:

''I can confirm that the Offender ID device produced by Redweb Technologies is a licensed product under the ACPO Secured by Design initiative and I am responsible for managing our relationship with that company.....

...The Offender ID product is an offender marking solution utilising forensic taggants which are harmless and this is confirmed by independent reports in our possession. In no way should this product be confused with an incapacitant spray, as carried by police officers. The aim is purely to ‘mark’ an offender for subsequent identification or placement at a crime scene within a reasonable time....

The Redweb Technologies product does include a dye as well as allowing UV light detection.

There are no issues regarding the liquid carrying the taggants and dye as there were with early CS incapacitants whereby there was a risk of burning if an offender was sprayed at close quarters. (that can hurt I recall from a training experience of mine back in force)

We looked at the legal issues before we approved the product and concluded

1. The device cannot be described as a firearm under Sec 1 or Sec 5 of the Firearms Act
2. The spray emitted cannot be described as a ‘noxious thing’ under the same legislation
3. The device is not ‘made or adapted’ to cause injury so cannot be classed as an offensive weapon with the usual caveat with anything that becomes ‘intended’ to cause such injury

The original licensing criteria was to allow BSIA accredited staff (uniformed guards / licensed door-staff) to have the spray once they had successfully passed a training course dealing with the correct storage and use of the product, and the consequences of improper or reckless use which could open someone up to criminal or civil liability for assault / criminal damage etc. The course was accredited via the Skills For Justice programme.

More recently Redweb Technologies have sought to sell the product more widely and one large market they have identified is PCSO’s / Local Authority Wardens etc but as you say the decision to allow use by such staff, or not, lies with the Chief Constable or Chief Executive in each area.

I am however keen to address any concern that a product that ACPO Secured by Design has accredited is illegal per se. Clearly we would not expose the service in that way. We believe that there is no more potential for a person using this product to incur liability than someone with a water pistol filled with a food dye who then spays people indiscriminately......


There are products similar to Offender ID that only ‘stain’ an offender available on the market which anyone can legally, and without any restriction, buy ‘on line’ from UK suppliers. Our intention was, and remains to introduce some training and creditability to these types of products when used by professionals, and provide guidance and reassurance for forces in relation to products that we believe have the potential to both reduce and detect crime.

I do hope this helps and I look forward to hearing from you''

ACPO Development Officer

29 Sep 2010 11:07 AM

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Paul wrote:

As a serving door supervisor i cant believe some peoples mentality. If it is'nt a tough enough job already we have to deal with so called baristers and law students telling us if we so much as point it at an offender we are in breach of the law. How about the guy running at me with a bottle in his hand? I have been in some tight situations and i know it comes with the job but if i had the offender spray even as a deterant it surely is worth carrying. Bravo to Rightguard.

15 Jul 2010 8:09 PM

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Anon wrote:

I am a serving Police Officer. They are not illegal (in fact Redweb Offender ID is approved by ACPO). I'm shocked at the lack of knowledge displayed by so called legal professionals here. This stuff has been analysed by the Forensic Science Service and proven not to be a Prohibited Weapon under S.5 Firearms Act as it contains no noxious substance. It isn't an offensive weapon because it isn't made, adapted or intended for causing injury to the person as the act requires. If you used it as reasonable force in making an arrest you would be excused from an assault charge by virtue of S.3 Criminal Law Act 1967. If you used it in self defence, you would be excused from an assault charge by virtue of the common law. Likewise with criminal damage. I think it's a great idea. It makes for safer restraint (i.e the doorman might not have to punch a violent person before he can restrain him if he can distract him with this spray).

03 Jun 2010 10:10 PM

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Joe wrote:

BUT IT DOESNT CAUSE PHYSICAL HARM! And surely if this is deployed against a violent, drunk and some times high on drugs, person that is using or threatening violence, then it is infact an act of self defense, which, not just Door Supervisors, but each and everyone of us has a right to exercise.

Youre all overlooking the fact that Doormen (and women!) have no powers of arrest. We have no powers to detain yet we have to deal with violent situations involving alcohol/drugs and or weapons before the Police even get to the scene. Surely this is better than the 'Licensed Thugs' kicking ten shades out of someone whos waving a bottle around or trying to punch the Doorstaff and customers?! I know of at least 2 doorman that carry this and even have had it looked at by the City of London Police and was allowed to carry on as per usual.

If youre being attacked and throw a drink in someones face, how is it any different? If anything its more dangerous as the glass could slip from the hand or attacker could lunge forward and before you know it, the person being attacked would be facing a GBH charge?!

Look at it from the different side of the fence and not text from the book.

17 May 2010 12:46 PM

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Surinder wrote:

Hi Joe, I am a barrister and I can assure you that to carry an object of any kind with the intention of causing physical harm or damage to personal property i.e, clothing or anything else would be termed as a weapon and is most definitely a breach of the "Offences against the Person ACT 1861". This being a law that is still in full use. It would also constitute a breach of "Common Law" and "Civil Law" In my view anyone doing this after having this explained would be subject to a term of imprisonment.

17 May 2010 12:10 PM

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Joe wrote:

Prithpal,

Can I ask you to brush up on the Private Industry Security Act of 2001?

If we want to get into stereotyping about various industries, then how about the one of solicitors being as good as 'regulated daylight robbers??' How can charging £200ph + to do some reading and write some letters be fair??

Can I also ask Michael how he comes to the view of 'Hitlers?'

On numerous occasions, this spray has been deployed up and down the country and as yet not one Doorman has been 'convicted' for its use OR EVEN CARRYING IT. Prithpal, if you wish to try and drag up some case laws or something similar, id be very interested in seeing those.

There's the gauntlet, try and run it.

Not a bad comeback for a knuckle dragging, meat head, regulated, Hitler thug eh?!

17 May 2010 10:59 AM

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Mr. B. wrote:

To Prithpal - in the first instance,for a "solicitor", your spelling is poor to say the least; also, under Common Law, a person may use the minimum force necessary to defend themselves. I would guess that most Courts would hold use of a spray like this to be reasonable. Finally, you do display a rather unprofessional bias. Licensed thugs indeed! (No, I'm not a doorman)

17 May 2010 6:55 AM

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Hama Kavula wrote:

If you don't like the bouncers (sorry, doormen!)... Don't go to the clubs :)

16 May 2010 6:26 PM

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prithpal wrote:

JOE, I am a Solicitor & I have checked thoughourly. If You use this against anyone intentionly you will definitely be guilty at least of Common Assault or worse & if you mark their clothing Criminal Damage. I f you feel you need assistance then pay the Police for their services. Also I am of the view that most "Doormen" are just Licensed Thugs"

16 May 2010 8:58 AM

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Michael wrote:

Football clubs pay for police officers to be in attendance on match days why not make the nightclubs and pubs pay for police officers to be on the on the door of these premises, then we would not need little Hitlers painting people pink.

14 May 2010 10:40 PM

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Joe wrote:

To all of you that are shooting this down before its even used, remember this, us Door Supervisors have a very tough job. We are the first to respond to any type of violence in venues across the country. We dont have batons, we dont have CS spray, we dont have cuffs.

This spray has been about for years, its first inception was called 'Stoppa Red' and has been subject to police scrutiny. This product does not fall under Section 5 of the Firearms act. 'Bouncers' as youve reported, are now regulated by the government and as a result are scrutinised to the hilt. Harminda, ask your uncle to look further into it before 'accusing' users of this product being dragged before the courts for 'Assault'

http://www.stoppashop.co.uk/stoppa-red-media/Stoppa-Red-Legal-Information.pdf

14 May 2010 10:51 AM

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Martin wrote:

Be interesting to see what Kent Police have to say about the use of this spray.

14 May 2010 10:24 AM

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tt wrote:

So what happens when the spray falls on innocent people standing nearby. Why cant they detain them until the police arrive? I think Im correct in saying CS spray is classed as a firearm and a use of force. I dont think they've thought about this!

14 May 2010 10:08 AM

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Harminda wrote:

My uncle a solicitor says anyone other than the Police using this on people would be guilty of "Common Assault" and "Criminal Damage"

14 May 2010 9:51 AM

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Adrian wrote:

Are you kidding me.. Bouncers in Canterbury are already pis* takers. Alberry's for example has bouncers that constantly make trouble with innocent & highly passive people as they power trip. If they abuse this and start 'branding' myself or people I am with a trouble maker and even more importantly ruin clothes there will be more trouble than originated.

14 May 2010 8:49 AM

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