Row over Kent school fingerprinting pupils

khy coleman wrote:

im khy coleman 13 and i would just like to say yhat the new school is loverly an i think that it will help me for the fucher. the finger prints that we had done were not for seeing if we had stolen some thing but to make the school saff for leeving or exiting,and for dinner so that we would not have to keep loos change. the new build is helping a lot of kids and it is also a grat oppertunity.

04 Sep 2011 10:41 PM

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Most of you are Bonkers wrote:

Dear Dean - Clearly you cannot read, as I am unable to find anywhere that I have stated "Nothing to fear nothing to hide" or anything along those lines? I have questioned the need for press involvement, I have questioned the mothers reasons for being against it etc...

I stand by my comment about the school uniform, I am sure if it were a young girls photo with her skirt rolled up to an inappropriate length and blouse untucked with a full face of makeup judgement would be quicker from everyone. I wasnt allowed to dress like that whilst representing my school and I will judge others and their school when they dress in a scruffy manner. Now when I see girls wearing the school uniform of my former school, I think they look wonderfully smart. I think you are misguided if you think my comments make me a bully - I am merely passing comment at a photo that the person in question has chosen to make public.

On the subject of bullying that is entirely the point. Many a child is bullied daily and their money stolen and many a child who is entitled to school meals ridiculed and humiliated because of having to use a different system to others.

Its not about wanting to live in dictatorship its about understanding that we live in an era of modern technology, the same way people had a hissy fit about chip and pin cards but now they are the norm, people will have a hissy fit about fingerprints but its only going one way and that is eventually our fingerprints being the key to everything... we might as well get used to it.

I suspect Dean that you are related to the young boy in question.

11 Jul 2011 1:02 PM

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Penny wrote:

Well one thing is for sure, when i can't sleep tonight i'll read all Deans comments...that should do the trick!

11 Jul 2011 11:37 AM

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Mike Martin wrote:

It's really strange, this story and the comments caused by it both made me think one thing. It's amazing what some people will do to make themselves the centre of attention.

10 Jul 2011 11:59 PM

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spyro wrote:

Dean spot on... also on the subject of law, there are law's on taking/storing and keeping records on people in the U.K. ie the data protection act, i wonder if these laws were kept to in this case?

10 Jul 2011 5:47 PM

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Dean wrote:

And for your information geoff, yes i was on the sex offenders register but only for 2 years. And what i choose to download has absolutely no bearing on this thread

09 Jul 2011 6:16 PM

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me wrote:

I totally agree with dean i think the comments have gone to far. remember what the story is about.

09 Jul 2011 5:39 PM

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Dean wrote:

Hi Everyone,

In particular the adults involved in bullying the 12 year old online. I want to bring to your attention the law on two counts so it is perfectly clear what you are involved in.


1. Cyberbullying; making derogatory or inflamatory statements online with the aim of causing distress, defamation or unnecessary hurt.

These activities are criminal
offences under a range of different laws, including
the Protection from Harassment Act 1997, which
has both criminal and civil provision, the Malicious
Communications Act 1988, section 127 of the
Communications Act 2003, and the Public Order
Act 1986.

2.Hate crime" generally refers to criminal acts that are seen to have been motivated by bias against one or more relating to race, disability, gender, and AGE or of their derivatives.

Incidents may involve physical assault, damage to property, BULLYING, harassment, verbal abuse or insults, or offensive graffiti or letters (hate mail including campaigns of villification online).

I would be willing to report this site to the police, the school, the local council and the national media if the campaign against the 12 year old boy continues and seek prosection under these statutes.

This would entail those with "nothing to hide and nothing to fear" handing over their internet account details to the police so they can receive a visit in relation to their online activities with the aim of prosecuting people under the sets of legislation.

This would in effect bar people from working for the public sector, being able to adopt children and having a criminal record for the rest of their lives in relation to bullying children.

Do you wish to continue?

Cheers


Dean

09 Jul 2011 3:49 PM

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Dean wrote:

Hi Sheila

I am a little worried you have descended into cloning. If "you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear."

It seems as though you have lost sight of the original argument about surveillance. Instead you have reverted to a pre 12 year old psychological state.

I would refer you to taking the Robert Hare "Psychopathic" self diagnosis test available for free on google. Then it may be beneficial to seek some form of help with your hatred of children. Perhaps you can start up a group for the others who post on this site such as Bonkers, Steve and Victoria

Good well soon

Dean

09 Jul 2011 2:53 PM

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me wrote:

I think you have miss read the story its about the dinner service finger printing, not the child.

09 Jul 2011 12:25 PM

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Dean wrote:

Now i must go and self abuse before my mother gets back from the darby and jones, she really does hate walking in on me when i'm wearing her tights

09 Jul 2011 10:51 AM

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Dean wrote:

Hi Sheila

Oh dear, the nasty piece of work on thise site is yourself, another person writing on a public forum castigating a 12 year old kid with all types of inner projections and you are presumably a mother of chilren.

Can you post your address if you have nothing to hide and nothing to fear so I can let Social Services do a check up to see if your parenting skills are up to scratch?

I'm sure you won't mind as you have shown a distinct hatred to adolesent children on an open site and clearly lack social boundaries around your behaviour and thinking.

Cheers


Dean

09 Jul 2011 10:21 AM

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sheila wrote:

He looks like a nasty piece of work! The police have probably already got his dabs anyway! Seen his type outside the shops gobbing on the floor and intimidating people. No fingerprints! NO FOOD!

09 Jul 2011 1:39 AM

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me wrote:

blame the school catering services, they are the ones that have put this in place. parents dont even get a choice.

08 Jul 2011 10:52 PM

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Free Born Englishman wrote:

Nothing to hide? Then why does Most of you are bonkers use the pseudonym?

If as he suggests he has nothing to hide from anyone and that readers already know who he is maybe he should use his full name address DOB and phone number instead.

08 Jul 2011 5:29 PM

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MARK TAHA wrote:

I am against this on principle.Does it really matter if a few pupils get free dinners they're not entitled to? This is a ridiculous overrwction.And,to the person wanting Tyler punished for the way he wears his uniform-don't be so bloody pompous!

08 Jul 2011 3:36 PM

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Dean wrote:

Dear Bonkers

The rational thing would be to inform the parents a month in advance in a newsletter stating they are considering this idea and what people think about giving the pros and cons. This would provide a good lead up time to take onboard any objections.

Perhaps you and the other posters citing their mantra (Nothing to fear nothing to hide) like to be instructed on how to live your life by the Nanny State. Perhaps you need and crave "instruction." Other more mature people do not. They like to make informed decisions within a democratic process.

If you wish to live in the Soviet Union or East Germany get into the Timelords Tardis and travel back to pre 1989. I'm sure after a couple of hours you will be cured of your mania for surveillance and control, clamouring for the freedom my forefathers fought to maintain in this country.

08 Jul 2011 2:47 PM

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Most of you are Bonkers wrote:

T.J in which case the timings of what you say and what the story say do not add up. The letter was received on Friday and Miss Towner wrote back.. which presumably the school got on Monday, Monday night Tyler comes home and says they tried to take his prints. Press called by Tuesday lunchtime... so at what point was she making all these phonecalls and getting passed about that your reference? Surely she could appreciate that a school is there for teaching and that probably during the three hours of school time Tuesday morning the relevant people might have been doing their jobs and caring/teaching the children? A rational thing to do would have been to ring the school and ask for an appointment with the headmaster out of school hours to discuss concerns or simply go to the school at the end of the day and ask to see the headmaster. There is absolutely no reason this needed to be taken to the press unless for attention.

08 Jul 2011 1:54 PM

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T.J. wrote:

The letter from the school was recieved on the friday,telling parents it was happening on the monday morning..Schools close over the weekend..It did not ask for consent from the child or the parents.it just stated if you have any queries reagarding this matter,please contact the academy.Miss Towner contacted the academy.2hrs later the school week finished..

08 Jul 2011 1:31 PM

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Most of you are bonkers wrote:

To Dean...

The story clearly states that the school did notify parents by letter before hand so most of your attack back at me is irrelevant.

Think what you will of my name, it does not related to this particular story but is the name I have been using to post on this forum for a long long time and came about following a story regarding dogs. I will not change it for each story as other regular posters on here know who I am.

I am quite amused that you think I am focused on someone elses child and that you are so concerned about my demons. My dad is called Steve... is that you dad? No probably not. Oh whats that I am talking to myself? Or maybe I am talking to my demons? Or maybe I am a mother of a son that is bored of molly coddling parents.

08 Jul 2011 1:17 PM

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Dean wrote:

Maverick

Could be boring but if the European Court rules against the British legal system and there is compensation for the "distres" I bet you will be first in the queue claiming your rights have been breached.

Then the school will be bankrupted because it is an Academy and run on private lines. Then no doubt you will be on your soap box whinging about feral kids along with Bonkers and Steve after helping yourselves to the cash box.

08 Jul 2011 1:05 PM

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Fred wrote:

Fingerprints are legal matter. Seems quite strange that a school goes this length for a meal. Isn't a card with a photo and a name on it enough to identify a person trying to get some sausage and mash?

08 Jul 2011 12:36 PM

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T.J. wrote:

Speaking from the fact that i know the family..For 1,Miss Towner had been in touch with the school,to have the scheme totally explained,she asked valid questions redgarding the system.She passed from person to person with no-one giving any answers.The school did not even meet with Miss Towner to disscuss anything.When constantly coming against closed doors Miss Towner decided to phone the press.It was after the press got involved that the school rectified any issue..2.The photo had been taken when her son had got home from school after a coach trip home.

08 Jul 2011 11:55 AM

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Maverick wrote:

This thread is developing the ability to make one yawn on a Friday!!

08 Jul 2011 11:20 AM

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Dean wrote:

"Most of you are bonkers" speaks clearly about your psychological inner self than it does about any external reality. The focus on someone elses child is quite disturbing. Are you related to Steve? Just appears you are projecting your own inner demons outwardly rather than making valid points.

The key questions in this debate are;

Did the school inform the parents about this new system beforehand?

Did they ask if anyone objected?

Was this agreed and discussed by the Governors/ LEA and did they seek legal advice on its legality?

Did they explain the rationale for the system and explain any checks and balances?

Did they let anyone know who is the Data Controller and who has access to the information ie outside bodies?

Did they do a cost benefit analysis or Equalities Impact Assessment?

Did they explain what happens to the information when the child leaves the school to the child/parents?

If none of the above have been undertaken then this is a clear illegal imposition and leaves the school wide open to a counter suit as according to the European legislation it is potentially illegal.

At the very least there should have been a letter sent to parents about its implementation. If this was not done then you may need to question the Head why this was not undertaken. What was the rationale?

I would point to the current wave of court cases being undertaken against News International are all based on an invasion of privacy. Just because one person has stood up does not make them wrong and the rest who have surrendered right, it shows they have guts whilst the rest are just complacent or browbeaten. I would also point to pension mis-selling, insurance protection mis-selling and mortgage mis-selling as precedents for institutions making grave errors.

I would ask you to type in European Courts and child fingerprints into google to get an over0view

08 Jul 2011 10:55 AM

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Most of you are Bonkers wrote:

"Tyler doesnt want to be fingerprinted"... not true Tylers mum doesn't want him to be fingerprinted, Tyler probably couldn't give too hoots.

Also she was happy with the outcome... so why go to the press? Oh unless you want to feel big and clever for causing disruption?

Her reasons for not wanting it done are ridiculous, every single thing we do in life these days comes with a security risk. Presumably her son doesnt have a bank/savings account... because after all she wouldn't want that being hacked now would she.

The comments below regarding the the boy himself... I know when I was at school there was a code of conduct which included looking smart in our uniform and representing the school properly at all times whilst wearing that uniform. I for sure would have been punished for wearing my shirt and tie like that and I hope he is... although probably not because his mum might cry to the school, undermine their authority or go to the press.

08 Jul 2011 9:45 AM

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dave w wrote:

Nice one miss Towner,stand up for your rights ,is this a police state we are living in or what...

08 Jul 2011 7:35 AM

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Victoria wrote:

The school (Academy) are using this for the purchase of school lunches, nothing else. It's not about giving up responsibility for your child. As a parent I would welcome this and from the story you will see that only 1 parent complained out of the hundreds that attend the school. As has been said before by me and others, what is the problem if you have nothing to hide!

08 Jul 2011 7:26 AM

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Dean wrote:

The problem with collecting this form of data is traditionally fingerprinting was undertaken in response to acts of criminality. It marked part of the rite of passage of being labelled criminal. The underlying assumption being young people can be controlled through using this biometric data. If you look at the Eton furore over its introduction, finger printing is not used for library cards. It is used to control the amount of drink a 16 year old can consume at their bar. Given the concerns over teenage drinking people this appears beneficial. The problem is more fundamental than relying on these systems of control. What it means is parents abdicating responsibilities of care and instead relyng on institutions to step in. Historically institutions have a poor record around child support; Boarding Schools, Childrens Homes and Detention Centres have all been sites of abuse. Entrusting data with authority figures has not provided security in the past. This technology has been introduced without any debate in parliament or in the national press. Think back to the fairly recent widespread RC child abuse scandals.Can you trust 100% people in authority with your children? The important point is families need to take more control over their children and the investment in these schemes is going to undermine the spread of resources to entail more effective parenting. Schools have to shift from being paranoid institutions to providing appropriate emotional and educational support for a new generation of young people. The surveillance state envisaged by New Labour entailed everyone absolving responsibility to Big Brother. The new coalition agenda is people taking more personal responsibility for their actions. This is what the debate needs to be about, not throwing insults at a 12 year old boy or putting blind faith in institutions that have failed young people in the past.

08 Jul 2011 12:26 AM

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Dean wrote:

Hi Steve

Very concerned at you poking abuse at a 12 year old on an open forum. Is this normally how you conduct yourself towards young people?

Do you speak to your own children using the language of a "critical parent." There is a vast psychological literature that highlights the damaging psychological effect of using negative behavioural terms towards children especially within an open forum which you consider "normal" discourse. Ridiculing a 12 year old is not very big nor very clever and points to some serious psychological issues that you need to attend to. Is this how your father spoke to you and you are repeating a pattern? It is not uncommon. Perhaps it may be useful if you sign up for some parenting classes for men. It may stop future crime and it is much more effective than fingerprinting children when parents know how to provide appropriate "attachment."

Regards


Dean

07 Jul 2011 11:43 PM

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Dean wrote:

Hi Ned

If you have nothing to fear and nothing to hide.

Can you let me know how much you earn?

Can you let me know if you've ever cheated on your partner?

Can you let me know if you've ever committed a crime and gotten away from it? Can you be truthful because the whole of the Kent community can ascertain the veracity of your response and they can either back you up or point out if you have been less than truthful.

Cheers


Dean

07 Jul 2011 11:34 PM

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T.J. wrote:

@ Steve..If thats all you are fit for is slating a kid,there is no point to your commenting on here..Its probably the case u have nothing better else to do..If you read it properly,his parents are concerned about how the data is being held,& that there is no governing bodies making sure there is no breeches of security.For things to work properly they need to be monitered.

07 Jul 2011 11:13 PM

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Steadyon wrote:

@Steve...

I thought the point of a comment would be to focus on the issue at hand. Freedom of speech is great but slating a kid and his family for their views? Come on, behave yourself.

And yes, I think the school's idea is a great one.

07 Jul 2011 10:11 PM

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ned wrote:

@cp totally agree, but lets get a balance here, yes we all have rights, but too much crime gets un punished for such twaddle, lets sacrifice some privacy if it gets results for awful stuff surely

07 Jul 2011 9:53 PM

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cp wrote:

@ ned

All very well, until the "crime" becomes to express your views (whatever they might be)as forcefully as you are doing.... and it IS slowly coming closer, just look at the shameful way those who just sat down in Fortnum and Masons the other day - no violence or destruction, just literally sitting down.

07 Jul 2011 9:36 PM

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steve wrote:

oh tyler, poor hard done by fool get a real school uniform, iron the collar and wear a school tie, JSA soon anyway, how we molly cuddle the youth, christ, and why is he worrying about finger prints, get a papre round and less hair gel

07 Jul 2011 9:36 PM

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ned wrote:

sensitive personal data !!!!!!!!! left wing twaddle, of those that have something to hide, anyone can have my fingerprints, why give children this right to object, we need to cut down on crime and being anonymous, heaven forbid

07 Jul 2011 9:19 PM

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T.J. wrote:

I agree with a cashless system,for school`s,but majority of schools use swipe cards & most schools in the uk rejected fingerprinting systems.Finger Prints are sensitive personal data..

07 Jul 2011 8:26 PM

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me wrote:

i totally agree with the cashless system, means the kids dont have to take money to school. no more lunch money being nick. whats the problem with being finger printed. most parents would be happy with it.

07 Jul 2011 6:56 PM

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clever wrote:

whats the problem, we take fingerprints of people hiring our hire cars, where i work, none object.

07 Jul 2011 6:48 PM

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Andy wrote:

Totally agree with Victoria, only those with something to hide would object so strongly to this. It seems like a good move to me! Even if someone did hack into the schools system, what use would a fingerprint be! It's not like getting hold of someone's credit card information!

07 Jul 2011 4:27 PM

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Victoria wrote:

Only people who have something to hide complain about things like this. If you uphold the law there is no concern if someone has your fingerprints etc. I would like my sons' school to introduce this as it would be much easier than having to find cash everyday and at least they can't lose their fingers, well maybe they could as they are teenage boys who lose everything else!

07 Jul 2011 4:02 PM

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jen wrote:

sounds like a good idea to me

07 Jul 2011 2:53 PM

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Maverick wrote:

Whats the issue??? If it makes the system more efficient then why worry???

I doubt he is a seasoned career criminal at the age of 12 who will be outed for a number of crimes whilst in the process of collecting his Turkey Twizzlers

07 Jul 2011 2:43 PM

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